Sunday, April 27, 2008

Pesach recap

1) Interesting case of a chumra ha-ba'ah liydei kula - someone buying clothing on Chol haMoed due to the onset of sefirah. AIUI, the former is more problematic than the latter, as engaging in commerce on Chol haMoed is assur (with the exception of cases of davar ha-aveid or tzorech ha-moed), while the issur of saying she-hechiyahu on a new garment or the like is characteristic of the period of bein ha-metzarim, not of sefirah (which only has prohibitions against weddings and haircuts {and perhaps melacha at certain times)).

2) An old gripe: Shehakol kiddushim, most commonly found on Pesach. Being that "ein kiddush ela b'makom seudah" renders a kiddush said without a subsequent seudah void[1], and that the Shulchan Aruch says that one can only be yotzei this requirement of a meal[2] using bread or wine[3] (or, according to many poskim[4], mezonos), if one eats potato starch cake following kiddush, not only is one's kiddush invalid (and perhaps a bracha l'vatalah?), but the food that he ate would l'mafrei'a be assur because of his not having made kiddush beforehand.

However, the Mishnah Berurah[5] b'shem the Chayei Adam and Eliyah Rabbah notes that the Shiltei Gibborim holds that Shabbos itself is kove'ia any food into a meal (as seen by hilchos ma'aser), so that if one is feeling weak, he can be someich on this da'as yachid (although only in the morning) and fulfill his requirement of kiddush b'makom seudah even with fruit or minei targima, so I suppose that yesh al mi lismoch, but it still sounds a bit iffy.

[1] S.A. O.Ch. 273:2
[2] Although not the requirement of the evening or morning meal as two of the shalosh seudos, which specifically require bread.
[3] S.A. O.Ch. 273:5
[4] Including the Mishnah Brurah b'shem the Magen Avraham, although IIRC, R' Akiva Eiger argues.
[5] 273:26

8 Comments:

At 4/28/2008 10:32 AM, Blogger Barzilai said...

I assume you are familiar with Reb Moshe's teshuva in which he is mattir shehakol kiddushim vis a vis the hetter to eat at the kiddush, but not as far as allowing eating later, for which you will need bemakom se'udah.

 
At 4/28/2008 12:15 PM, Blogger Josh M. said...

I was not aware of that teshuva, and will have to look at it inside (O.Ch. 4:63). Thanks!

 
At 4/28/2008 12:29 PM, OpenID scharch said...

I remember asking someone about this last year (I think it was Rav Mordy), and I was told that since mezonos wasn't "possible," that seudah was defined by what you could have. Or something like that. I also remember not being very satisfied and skipping the kiddush.

 
At 5/08/2008 12:28 PM, Blogger Barzilai said...

I posted a comment on something you wrote two years ago. I hope you get an email notice about posts.

 
At 5/12/2008 10:09 AM, Blogger Joshua said...

I know in my shul, the Rabbi asked a shayla of a Posek who permitted potato starch cake for kiddush because there are several members of the shul who have very long walks.

Of course one option should be providing Manischevitz Pesach cookies which are made of Matzo Meal for those who eat Matzo Meal.

My question always comes up at the Siyum Bechorim - most of the time the shul has been cleaned for Pesach and potato starch cake is used. Does it count as a siyum if you're only saying Shehakol?

 
At 5/12/2008 3:13 PM, Blogger Joshua said...

On an unrelated note, have you seen anything definitive of what's kosher in Starbucks - coffee, cappucino, and how come I've never seen anything about the tea in Starbucks?

 
At 5/12/2008 3:41 PM, Blogger Josh M. said...

I also recall wondering about the propriety of a shehakol siyum some years back, but I'm not sure if kevi'us seudah is a requirement there.

The definitive list of what's kosher at Starbucks is located at KosherStarbucks.com . I've met one of the proprietors.

 
At 4/17/2016 1:30 PM, Blogger Mike said...

The Kiddush would not be a bracha l'vatala c"v. He just made a hagofen and drank the wine. If he drank a full reviis (2.9 oz according to the most lenient opinion), he is yotzi and may eat the Pesach cake, though better to wash on matza right away.

 

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